Not a single response..thanks folks

There are so many postings to read and people DO miss sometime (esp if it
was off-topic... I don't know because I didn't see it). Reposting your
message will help you, but sarcasm WILL NOT!

simon.

"Ian Johnstone" <caplock2@lineone.net> wrote in message
news:3a2ecddd@news.dev-archive.com...
> Re my post above "Employment prospects".
>
> Guess you have to be american or asian to get in on the chat here, thanks
> for your collective advice
> Ian.
>
>

Chris I would have to disagree with you on your comment

'dont learn vb. you are at the mercy of microsoft with vb. and
>you end up working boring gui<->db type apps with vb.'

I am a VB programmer and I spend very little time writing 'gui<->db type
apps with vb', I in fact spend most of my time developing Web applications,
and most of this is spent building Business objects, I never touch GUIs.
Yes I may well be at the mercy of Microsoft. However I should point out that
your advice 'go with java' merely changes to corporation that one is at the
mercy of. I do hope you are not going to try to tell us that Sun Microsystems
is preferable to Microsoft for whatever reason you choose to dislike Microsoft,
because quite recently we in Australia were able to see both of the posturing
clowns in action at the World Economic Forum held in Melbourne, and I see
little or nothing to choose between them and their obvious corporate strategies.

Enough of that.

Ian my suggestion is go for a language that you feel most comfortable with,
if you have the time and the drive learn VB, C++ and Java and perhaps also
Delpi. Most of all I would suggest ( and here I agree with you Chris ) learn
good design principles, this I believe is what makes a good programmer.

"chris" <chofstaedter@padcomusa.com> wrote:
>
>"Ian Johnstone" <caplock2@lineone.net> wrote:
>>Re my post above "Employment prospects".
>>
>>Guess you have to be american or asian to get in on the chat here, thanks
>>for your collective advice
>>Ian.
>>
>>
>i cant comment about the lack of attention for your previous post. i dont
>frequent this group much. but perhaps the attitude you are demonstrating
>in this post has something to do with you lack of luck with prospective
employers.
>
>
>enough nastiness however.
>
>i went back and read your note and you seem to be in a common dilemma.
its
>a great job market for those with experience. much less so for those without.
> i do sympathize. i was kind of where you are about 10 years ago.
>
>regarding your real question though...
>
>in my opinion -
>
>dont learn vb. you are at the mercy of microsoft with vb. and
>you end up working boring gui<->db type apps with vb.
>i wouldnt waste my time with c either - unless you want to
>get stuck writing z80 code or something. imho, you should
>focus on either java or c++ (c++ is far superior in my opinion,
>but as far as employment prospects, future, and enjoyable
>projects, those two are both promising. if you want to
>write business logic for mis systems, or web development, go
>with java. if you want to do serious systems work, go with c++.
>
>my advice with regard to switching careers is to leverage off
>of you current exp by finding some software development work
>that requires ee knowledge. also whore yourself out for as
>little $ as it takes to get the experience. also, as much as
>possible, when faced with an employment decision, go for the
>job offering better experience over that offering better money.
>
>using these methods works. i was a management/accountant weinie
>less than 10 years ago. now i am the software architect
>for a mobile (wireless) router company.
>
>a last piece of advice. c++ and java are both object oriented languages.
> as someone in a position to hire people, its relatively easy to find c++
>coders. its **** near impossible to find people that understand good design
>from bad let along people that can design well. if you want to set yourself
>apart, focus on design. buy yourself the gof design patterns book. get
>coplien's advanced c++ styles and idioms book. visit cetus-links and object
>mentor websites and read up on design principles like isp, lsp, ocp, and
>others.
>
>truly, when i find someone that really understands good design, that means
>more than any amount of formal schooling to me.
>

Well acually I wasn't getting religious on the language issue either, I was
going to add Delphi to the list. In my opinion language boils down to little
more than syntax, I've programmed in Basic 2+ on DEC PDP11/70s, COBOL on
Data General an WANG, C, Pascal, Basic and Assembler on PCs - so I find it
a little difficult to see language as more than a means to an end. VB is
merely how I currently pay the bills.

I suppose I have over recent months read and heard too many comments disparaging
Microsoft for what usually boils down to no really good reason at all. Your
comment appeared to me to be in the same vein, for that reason I felt your
advice was based in prejudice (I appear to have gone down the garden path
a bit on that one). I think I have probably heard every 'reason' why Microsoft
should be considered the evil empire, only the name at the time was IBM.

"chris" <chofstaedter@padcomusa.com> wrote:
>
>"Tracy Barlow" <tracyannebarlow@dingoblue.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>Chris I would have to disagree with you on your comment
>>
>>'dont learn vb. you are at the mercy of microsoft with vb. and
>>>you end up working boring gui<->db type apps with vb.'
>>
>>I am a VB programmer and I spend very little time writing 'gui<->db type
>>apps with vb', I in fact spend most of my time developing Web applications,
>>and most of this is spent building Business objects, I never touch GUIs.
>
>ok. my preference is to stay away from business apps. i consider them
to
>be boring. if we term them db<->gui or the development of business objects,
>its still not as "fun" (again - in my opinion) as developing systems software.
> and this was the point i was trying to make. perhaps i should have been
>more broad in my statement.
>
>and regarding web apps. yes, i've done my share of those. and yes, even
>in vb (vb6). and yes, after the initial shine wore off, it ended up being
>the same systems over and over with different names.
>
>>Yes I may well be at the mercy of Microsoft. However I should point out
>that
>>your advice 'go with java' merely changes to corporation that one is at
>the
>>mercy of. I do hope you are not going to try to tell us that Sun Microsystems
>>is preferable to Microsoft for whatever reason you choose to dislike Microsoft,
>
>i dont dislike ms. i own stock in them and spend most of my development
>time on ms platforms.
>
>and my advise was to go with c++ or java - not just java.
>
>admittedly, sun is being wienieesque with java and making it defactor proprietary.
> at least its been implemented on multiple platforms. but perhaps i was
>being too generous with including java in that list.
>
>in recommending more than one language, i was hoping to stay away from religous
>language wars. apparently that didnt work. so, i'll just back off the
java
>comment and recommend c++.
>
>