can a recruiter ask my current salary?

"John" <iconsultant2001@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I don't really want to tell them since I'm underpaid and worth much more.

Are you talking about a recruiter for full-time positions? Those recruiters
generally want you to get the market rate (or better) in your job, since
their commission depends on a percentage of your salary (generally 15-30%
or so, depending).

The contract positions where you end up working as an employee (or subcontractor)
of the broker's company are a different matter entirely. In those cases,
you and the recruiter sit on opposite sides of the transactions. Most brokers
and most body shops (trade name for shops who provide contractor bodies to
fill job slots) would just as soon as pay you as little as possible. This
is because they plan to bill you out for the largest rate possible and pay
you as little as possible and get the difference. You are absolutely correct
that telling such a person that you are underpaid is most certainly going
to result in a lower offer for you. Now there is the one out of ten that
thinks long term and realizes that if they pay you the market rate instead
of taking advantage, you will work for them longer and not quit (which really
pisses off their clients), and do a better job. But nine out of ten just
don't think that way. They think: lets pay this sucker $30 / hour and we
are billing the client $80, so we make $50 / hour (minus taxes and misc.
costs). If you work with these body shops for long you will realize that
their every desire is to keep their employees ignorant cattle and milk them
for every dollar. Thus they will never tell you what your bill rate is (the
rate the client pays for your services) and will always insist that you never
reveal your rate to anyone, especially the client. That is because the client
will surely realize he or she is being bilked when they find our that the
"senior-level VB consultant" that cost them $90 / hour is taking home $45
/ hour. I'll give you a story. At my current client, three of us were brought
in to help finish a project whose schedule was slipping. I was brought in
at X dollars per hour, consultant 2 was brought in at 85% of X, and consultant
3 at 65% of X. All three of us were being charged the same to the client.

After a few months, consultants 2 and 3 left because they were making below-market
rates. I stayed on and saved the client's butt (all their full-time programmers
had moved on as well--I was the only programmer with knowledge of the system),
because I was getting market rate for my skills and had played hardball negotiation
with the body shop. Now over a year has passed, and I have continued with
the client long enough that the body shop has made more money on me than
both of the consultants they were paying less and taking more per hour.
You'd think this pattern would be obvious to them, but it isn't, and only
a small fraction (maybe 10%) will choose the more ethical path instead of
the quicker buck.

If you are thinking about doing contract programming work, and use brokers
at all to find work, you absolutely owe yourself to check out the following
url's

http://www.realrates.com/

http://pub2.ezboard.com/bcomputerconsultants

Especially hang out on the message board (second URL) and ask questions.
I can guarantee that you will increase your rate by $10-20,000 per year
or more by use of the information available for free on these sites. My
own rate went up by 60% immediately after learning on these sites what the
market rates were for contract programmers with my skills in my geographic
area. I've also learned a heck of a lot about how to win in negotiations
with brokers by hearing the collective wisdom of dozens of experienced consultants.

Good luck in your search,

Matthew Cromer
President, SDA Consulting, Inc.

"James" <scout_search@uswest.net> wrote:
>
>"John" <iconsultant2001@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>I don't really want to tell them since I'm underpaid and worth much more.
>
>Speaking as a recruiter--of course we can. But if you're that underpaid
>if that recruiter is any good they should realize that from your experience
>and skills. I've worked with engineers that have sometimes almost doubled
>their salaries...
>My position is no! If you want to give a ballpark of what you will accept,
fine. What my present job is has significance for the next job, not the
salary. YOU tell me what you are willing to pay, and I will tell you if
that is acceptable or not, and then we can negotiate. My PRESENT salary,
for work being done for my PRESENT employer, regardless of the employment
arrangement, is none of your business

"Matthew Cromer" <matthew@sdaconsulting.com> wrote:
>
>"John" <iconsultant2001@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>I don't really want to tell them since I'm underpaid and worth much more.
>
>Are you talking about a recruiter for full-time positions? Those recruiters
>generally want you to get the market rate (or better) in your job, since
>their commission depends on a percentage of your salary (generally 15-30%
>or so, depending).
>
>The contract positions where you end up working as an employee (or subcontractor)
>of the broker's company are a different matter entirely. In those cases,
>you and the recruiter sit on opposite sides of the transactions. Most brokers
>and most body shops (trade name for shops who provide contractor bodies
to
>fill job slots) would just as soon as pay you as little as possible. This
>is because they plan to bill you out for the largest rate possible and pay
>you as little as possible and get the difference. You are absolutely correct
>that telling such a person that you are underpaid is most certainly going
>to result in a lower offer for you. Now there is the one out of ten that
>thinks long term and realizes that if they pay you the market rate instead
>of taking advantage, you will work for them longer and not quit (which really
>pisses off their clients), and do a better job. But nine out of ten just
>don't think that way. They think: lets pay this sucker $30 / hour and
we
>are billing the client $80, so we make $50 / hour (minus taxes and misc.
>costs). If you work with these body shops for long you will realize that
>their every desire is to keep their employees ignorant cattle and milk them
>for every dollar. Thus they will never tell you what your bill rate is
(the
>rate the client pays for your services) and will always insist that you
never
>reveal your rate to anyone, especially the client. That is because the
client
>will surely realize he or she is being bilked when they find our that the
>"senior-level VB consultant" that cost them $90 / hour is taking home $45
>/ hour. I'll give you a story. At my current client, three of us were
brought
>in to help finish a project whose schedule was slipping. I was brought
in
>at X dollars per hour, consultant 2 was brought in at 85% of X, and consultant
>3 at 65% of X. All three of us were being charged the same to the client.
>
>After a few months, consultants 2 and 3 left because they were making below-market
>rates. I stayed on and saved the client's butt (all their full-time programmers
>had moved on as well--I was the only programmer with knowledge of the system),
>because I was getting market rate for my skills and had played hardball
negotiation
>with the body shop. Now over a year has passed, and I have continued with
>the client long enough that the body shop has made more money on me than
>both of the consultants they were paying less and taking more per hour.

>You'd think this pattern would be obvious to them, but it isn't, and only
>a small fraction (maybe 10%) will choose the more ethical path instead of
>the quicker buck.
>
>If you are thinking about doing contract programming work, and use brokers
>at all to find work, you absolutely owe yourself to check out the following
>url's
>
>http://www.realrates.com/
>
>http://pub2.ezboard.com/bcomputerconsultants
>
>Especially hang out on the message board (second URL) and ask questions.
> I can guarantee that you will increase your rate by $10-20,000 per year
>or more by use of the information available for free on these sites. My
>own rate went up by 60% immediately after learning on these sites what the
>market rates were for contract programmers with my skills in my geographic
>area. I've also learned a heck of a lot about how to win in negotiations
>with brokers by hearing the collective wisdom of dozens of experienced consultants.
>
>Good luck in your search,
>
>Matthew Cromer
>President, SDA Consulting, Inc.
>
>Oops! way to make a great impression. THANKS Matthew for your comments
and the sites..they are great. Hope to see you there soon. Ethics in all
things are needed, too little anymore.